chrisv102581
New Member
My PVC will be in the mail tomorrow, I only saw 2 tunes on Dynojet's webpage. Is there anyplace to start with tuning this thing?? Just new to the power commander .. thanks
gbabyracing
Member
I'd find a dynajet tuning center for a starting point. They will properly build you a map for your machine.
D
Deleted member 452
Guest
You may contact Chad (cjwell here one the forum) at KTM Performance (site sponsor). I think he used to include a (tuned) map of your choice if you bought the PCV from him...don't know whether he provides/sells them separately but he certainly is the man to talk to when it comes to PCV and RC390...or tuning in general for that matter...
HardRacing
Supporting Vendor
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Honestly......... the best solution, is adding an Dyno Jet WIDEBAND Commander 2 to your PCV.
This will create your OWN Custom Map...... specific for your bike with Your Mods., your gas... , where You live.. in Real World outdoor conditions.
It's like a Dyno Tune........ but out in the Real world, while your riding around, and it constantly can update your map, until it's perfect.
PLUS........ if you make any changes down the road (Different Fuel, New performance part...etc) , it will adjust accordingly.
and most of the time, it's LESS MONEY... then a True DYNO TUNE.
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Honestly......... the best solution, is adding an Dyno Jet WIDEBAND Commander 2 to your PCV.
This will create your OWN Custom Map...... specific for your bike with Your Mods., your gas... , where You live.. in Real World outdoor conditions.
It's like a Dyno Tune........ but out in the Real world, while your riding around, and it constantly can update your map, until it's perfect.
PLUS........ if you make any changes down the road (Different Fuel, New performance part...etc) , it will adjust accordingly.
and most of the time, it's LESS MONEY... then a True DYNO TUNE.
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chrisv102581
New Member
Is the auto tune plug and play or is welding needed for the 390?
If you're still running stock exhaust or have aftermarket without a separate O2 bung it will need to be welded.
chrisv102581
New Member
I still have the factory headed pipe with factory O2 sensor
Yeah you have to run both the autotune o2 sensor and the factory one, DJ has a o2 optimizer that runs with the factory o2 sensor. There's a thread here somewhere talking about needing both.
HardRacing
Supporting Vendor
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Sorry, we had to edit our post.
Just got off the phone with Head Tech at Dyno Jet.
The better solution is actually the Dyno Jet WidebandCommander 2, or WBC2.
The WBC2 is an autotune....... with extra bells and whistles.
1 of which is the ability to run a Air/Fuel Gauge.
2nd, is a Low Voltage output wire.
What you can do is, run that "Green" Wire... to the o2 Signal wire on the KTM Wire Harness and it will "Spoof" the signal using the Wide Band Sensor readings, instead of the stock sensor.
This may sound confusing but you basically.... .
1) Remove your stock o2 Sensor from your header
2) Install the Wideband Sensor into that same bung
3) Wire up the WBC2 module, and connect it to the PCV.
Then the WBC2 will drive everything.
It will monitor the A/F using a much more accurate WIDE BAND o2 Sensor.
It will send signal to the Stock ECU to adjust Closed loop.
It will send signal to the PCV to adjust OPEN Loop
It will send A/F reading to your gauge or LCD Display (if you have one installed)
We know this works............ and works well because we've been running this exact same setup on the Honda Grom for 2 years now. Over 1000 + customers around the world are running the same setup on the Grom.
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Sorry, we had to edit our post.
Just got off the phone with Head Tech at Dyno Jet.
The better solution is actually the Dyno Jet WidebandCommander 2, or WBC2.
The WBC2 is an autotune....... with extra bells and whistles.
1 of which is the ability to run a Air/Fuel Gauge.
2nd, is a Low Voltage output wire.
What you can do is, run that "Green" Wire... to the o2 Signal wire on the KTM Wire Harness and it will "Spoof" the signal using the Wide Band Sensor readings, instead of the stock sensor.
This may sound confusing but you basically.... .
1) Remove your stock o2 Sensor from your header
2) Install the Wideband Sensor into that same bung
3) Wire up the WBC2 module, and connect it to the PCV.
Then the WBC2 will drive everything.
It will monitor the A/F using a much more accurate WIDE BAND o2 Sensor.
It will send signal to the Stock ECU to adjust Closed loop.
It will send signal to the PCV to adjust OPEN Loop
It will send A/F reading to your gauge or LCD Display (if you have one installed)
We know this works............ and works well because we've been running this exact same setup on the Honda Grom for 2 years now. Over 1000 + customers around the world are running the same setup on the Grom.
.
HardRacing
Supporting Vendor
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There is one thing though.
This Low Voltage output ."Green Wire" .. can ONLY be adjusted using a LCD200.
Unfortunately, You can't access this through the Dyno Jet Software. .. (nope, it's not the same thing as the fuel map)
To get the most out of the WBC2, you need to have it programmed to run at a lower A/F Ratio approx. 13.7 A/F
If you just install the WBC2 without changing it, the low voltage output signal would just be 14.7 A/F
BUT.......... good news is............ we do that For you, before we ship.
So when you get the unit......... it's already programmed to run at 13.7 A/F in the Closed loop.
Hope that makes sense.
This helps explain it a little better.
[video=youtube;MKfWl0giinA]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MKfWl0giinA[/video]
.
There is one thing though.
This Low Voltage output ."Green Wire" .. can ONLY be adjusted using a LCD200.
Unfortunately, You can't access this through the Dyno Jet Software. .. (nope, it's not the same thing as the fuel map)
To get the most out of the WBC2, you need to have it programmed to run at a lower A/F Ratio approx. 13.7 A/F
If you just install the WBC2 without changing it, the low voltage output signal would just be 14.7 A/F
BUT.......... good news is............ we do that For you, before we ship.
So when you get the unit......... it's already programmed to run at 13.7 A/F in the Closed loop.
Hope that makes sense.
This helps explain it a little better.
[video=youtube;MKfWl0giinA]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MKfWl0giinA[/video]
.
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Yes if you buy your PCv from Chad he provides a map. I don't know if he sells his maps or if he would send it out if you didn't buy a PCv from him. He spend a LOT of time developing those maps, and it's really well worth buying from him. You would need days on a dyno to develop a map aywhere near as good as his. To me, that was a slam dunk for which way to go. Chad developed an awesome map, and has maps for specific changes.
The autotune is an option. I'm not sure how good of one however. There is much debate as to how effective auto-tune is vs a tune which was developed on a dyno. The PCv samples frequently, but there is a delay in the sensor. So, your "tune" isn't for what your engine conditions are at that exact moment, but what they were previously. This delay can be as much as a few seconds.
If you are making ANY changes to your intake or exhaust, you will require a PCv. For the exhaust development work we did, we used a canned map, and verified the AFR mixture vs the dynojet's sensor (shoved up the tailpipe) and the mapping was a perfect spot to start from for the exhaust development testing. We are running his map for stock exhaust with airbox mod now.
The autotune is an option. I'm not sure how good of one however. There is much debate as to how effective auto-tune is vs a tune which was developed on a dyno. The PCv samples frequently, but there is a delay in the sensor. So, your "tune" isn't for what your engine conditions are at that exact moment, but what they were previously. This delay can be as much as a few seconds.
If you are making ANY changes to your intake or exhaust, you will require a PCv. For the exhaust development work we did, we used a canned map, and verified the AFR mixture vs the dynojet's sensor (shoved up the tailpipe) and the mapping was a perfect spot to start from for the exhaust development testing. We are running his map for stock exhaust with airbox mod now.
HardRacing
Supporting Vendor
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In a perfect world, sharing a map would be great.
IF.......... everything was exactly the same.
Same Exact Bike
Same Exact Mods
Same Exact Air Temperature
Same Exact Fuel
Same Exact Altitude
Same Exact Barometric Pressure.
Odds of that happening with 2 different bikes from hundreds of miles away............. ???
Indeed, it can be a good starting point. But at the end of the day, the only way to get an EXACT Map for your bike, is an Wideband/Autotune or a Dyno Tune.
That way your getting the absolute best performance out of your bike.
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In a perfect world, sharing a map would be great.
IF.......... everything was exactly the same.
Same Exact Bike
Same Exact Mods
Same Exact Air Temperature
Same Exact Fuel
Same Exact Altitude
Same Exact Barometric Pressure.
Odds of that happening with 2 different bikes from hundreds of miles away............. ???
Indeed, it can be a good starting point. But at the end of the day, the only way to get an EXACT Map for your bike, is an Wideband/Autotune or a Dyno Tune.
That way your getting the absolute best performance out of your bike.
.
Most of those variables aren't constant. Temp, fuel, altitude, and barometric pressure aren't going to be the same even for the bike that got the dyno run for it. Additionally the sensor on the bike will be allowing for tune changes based on those variables. The rest is the mods. Well, pretty much the mods which have proven (dyno results) to be beneficial are putting the Akrapovic edu map on, and doing the airbox mod with the K&N filter... With the PCv then to tune for the airbox mod.
I'll let Chad respond to how his tune mappings are relevant top other bikes. I was just pointing out that there's much debate as to the value provided by the AutoTune. The delay from the sensor being that it is tuning for what your engine had previously been doing, not what it's doing now, having been one of the major points of contention. I'm not familiar enough with it to have an educated opinion on the subject... Other than those who are the ones which -=I=- go to, tend to roll their eyes when someone brings up AutoTune.
This forum is one where we do our VERY best to discuss HARD data tho. Claims can be made for ANYTHING. The way to resolve the question would be to test. Take one bike with a canned map, and test it out vs AutoTune. Same bike. Same mods. Same temp et all. Something which could be compared head to head, with empirical HARD data...
I don't know if anyone has ever done such a test before. There is also some bias on the part of tuners to state that AutoTune won't produce as good of results as "real tuning" does where they are tweaking timing and fuel. I don't know if AutoTune does timing, or just fuel mixture... But doing both are an integral and vital component of getting optimal results.
I'll let Chad respond to how his tune mappings are relevant top other bikes. I was just pointing out that there's much debate as to the value provided by the AutoTune. The delay from the sensor being that it is tuning for what your engine had previously been doing, not what it's doing now, having been one of the major points of contention. I'm not familiar enough with it to have an educated opinion on the subject... Other than those who are the ones which -=I=- go to, tend to roll their eyes when someone brings up AutoTune.
This forum is one where we do our VERY best to discuss HARD data tho. Claims can be made for ANYTHING. The way to resolve the question would be to test. Take one bike with a canned map, and test it out vs AutoTune. Same bike. Same mods. Same temp et all. Something which could be compared head to head, with empirical HARD data...
I don't know if anyone has ever done such a test before. There is also some bias on the part of tuners to state that AutoTune won't produce as good of results as "real tuning" does where they are tweaking timing and fuel. I don't know if AutoTune does timing, or just fuel mixture... But doing both are an integral and vital component of getting optimal results.
HardRacing
Supporting Vendor
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LOL... That's funny.
You do realize that nearly every car on the road today.... even the $100,000 + cars, use the same Bosch 5 wire o2 Sensor.
The Sensor Monitors the A/F and sends the signal back to the ECU and it adapts accordingly.
That's Millions of cars using the same technology.
Dyno Jet has sold over 100,000 Autotune & Wide Band Commanders.
I don't think there is .. "Much to Debate" . If the system didn't work, DJ wouldn't have sold as many as they have. And nearly every car wouldn't be using the same technology.
Sure a Completely Programmable Stand Alone ECU would be great.
But, currently that's not an option. So the next best thing is a Piggy Back Module like the PCV and Wideband2/Autotune to monitor the A/F
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I do realize, yes. Of course. Look, I wasn't trying to start an argument here. I'm just saying that those who setup and tune motorcycles, or at least the ones who I know, specifically but not exclusively for racebikes, and even more specifically for the RC-390, just plain don't use auto-tune. Period. The AutoTune is adjusting the Air Fuel ratio, but as far as I know it's not also adjusting the timing. Timing adjustments are an integral part of getting the most out of the tune, and those adjustments are largely going to be subject to the hard parts in the engine so the maps created for the RC390 various states of tune are largely transferable from one bike to another. I don't remember exactly what gains were had from the timing adjustments, but it was a significant contributor. Obviously there can be almost always some additional gains based on differences from bike to bike, but largely what we are seeing on the dyno is that those differences are for the most part nearly inconsequential. The bikes with the same mods are more or less seeing the same gains with the same mods performed and with a common map. Differences from bike to bike, day to day, dyno to dyno, blah blah blah... we are consistently seeing the same gains. Maybe one dyno says 42.3 and another says 33 or 44. Doesn't matter, when compared to baseline we are seeing almost the exact same curves when overlaid. That's reproducible results. It's not like we are dealing with 280HP Turbo'd Nitro Hayabusa here... were talking about a ~40hp 373cc single who's mods typically consist of an exhaust and the airbox mod + the PCv so they don't melt their topend. The tuners I associate with, one of which is a supporting member on this site which has helped many members with their bikes, eschew using AutoTune because it just CAN't get the same performance as a system which has been mapped for both AFR as well as timing. I'm not saying AutoTune DOESN'T work, I'm saying it doesn't work as well, and that, as far as I know, it can not work as well. With the PCv, when the custom map is created, you control not only the fuel, but the timing as well. AutoTune can't match that. To state otherwise is disingenuous and contrary to everything we (myself, other supporting members, and the rest of the community here) have established as the tone and factual, empirical, analyzable, reproducible, evidence based method of discussing modifications to the bike. I get it. You're new here. This isn't Gixxer.com. We might not strive for Peer Review levels of evidence, but some days it certainly can feel like it. 
If there is a way to get AutoTune to meet, or exceed, the power of a "properly tuned system"... through the AutoTune AFR / Fuel ratios, I'm unaware of it. As it has been explained to me, tuning only the AFR isn't sufficient to get the maximum power that a given engine configuration is capable of producing, and THAT is the primary debate pint that I am referring to as to how useful AutoTune is, or not. This is especially true on something like the RC-390, where we are dealing with small amounts of HP to start with. An impact of even just half a HP is something that will impact lap times and/or fuel economy. We have an existing supporting vendor here who has spent a LOT of time building mappings for the community, and he gives them freely when the PCv is purchased from him. There is a LOT of value in that. I don't even know if it's possible for Chad to fully detail how much dyno time and how many runs he's done building those maps. It's server hundred pulls, per configuration, of which there are a few. Forum members have given their bikes to Chad for him to build the mapping with, based on their modifications, as an additional means of community support and development.
If you have evidence otherwise that an AutoTune on the 390 can match what Chad and the community has built, I'm certainly open to it.
Really tho... we've been down this road on the forum QUITE a bit already. It's right up there with the India ECU remap and the Bazzaz (no closed loop or ignition timing) controllers. BTDT. If someone has the PCv, and aren't taking advantage of all of it's features with regard to pre-canned maps from hundreds of pulls and countless hours of testing, and are instead trying to rely on the AutoTune to do all that on the fly then... no... I know better and shouldn't have even opened my mouth in the first place... so I'm just not going to go down this road any further. We've done it too many times already here... the results are already sorted out. AutoTune isn't the solution. Maybe it is on a turbo Busa, but not for the 390. If you want to claim otherwise you are certainly free to do so... I'll revert to the pretty much universally agreed upon forum default response to claims for power gains however:
Show Us Your Dyno.
If there is a way to get AutoTune to meet, or exceed, the power of a "properly tuned system"... through the AutoTune AFR / Fuel ratios, I'm unaware of it. As it has been explained to me, tuning only the AFR isn't sufficient to get the maximum power that a given engine configuration is capable of producing, and THAT is the primary debate pint that I am referring to as to how useful AutoTune is, or not. This is especially true on something like the RC-390, where we are dealing with small amounts of HP to start with. An impact of even just half a HP is something that will impact lap times and/or fuel economy. We have an existing supporting vendor here who has spent a LOT of time building mappings for the community, and he gives them freely when the PCv is purchased from him. There is a LOT of value in that. I don't even know if it's possible for Chad to fully detail how much dyno time and how many runs he's done building those maps. It's server hundred pulls, per configuration, of which there are a few. Forum members have given their bikes to Chad for him to build the mapping with, based on their modifications, as an additional means of community support and development.
If you have evidence otherwise that an AutoTune on the 390 can match what Chad and the community has built, I'm certainly open to it.
Really tho... we've been down this road on the forum QUITE a bit already. It's right up there with the India ECU remap and the Bazzaz (no closed loop or ignition timing) controllers. BTDT. If someone has the PCv, and aren't taking advantage of all of it's features with regard to pre-canned maps from hundreds of pulls and countless hours of testing, and are instead trying to rely on the AutoTune to do all that on the fly then... no... I know better and shouldn't have even opened my mouth in the first place... so I'm just not going to go down this road any further. We've done it too many times already here... the results are already sorted out. AutoTune isn't the solution. Maybe it is on a turbo Busa, but not for the 390. If you want to claim otherwise you are certainly free to do so... I'll revert to the pretty much universally agreed upon forum default response to claims for power gains however:
Show Us Your Dyno.
HardRacing
Supporting Vendor
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You may need to read our post again.
The WBC2 and the Autotune, while similar...................... are not the same thing.
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You may need to read our post again.
The WBC2 and the Autotune, while similar...................... are not the same thing.
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"Show Us Your Dyno."
gbabyracing
Member
Seriously you should really start with a proper tune at a certified DynaJet tuning center. This tune will become your baseline. it will be done on your bike, your fuel, your setup. It will be done in a controlled environment by a technician trained to properly fuel your machine. Auto tune is a great tool for last touch. Used frequently track side to gain that small extra edge. Generally collected AF data is reviewed before you accept it to insure it doesn't impact something negatively. When your weekend is finished you would go back to your base to be prepared for the next event. A tune is well worth the $300 or so to have it done. BTW, modern ECU do a pretty good job of adjusting themselves for altitude variations.
While you are at the tuning center you can also have your PCV tune improved even more by working with the ignition side. Not all bikes gain much with ignition timing (Suzuki for example) many do.
While you are at the tuning center you can also have your PCV tune improved even more by working with the ignition side. Not all bikes gain much with ignition timing (Suzuki for example) many do.
