Track day (kind of)

[fos373]

It's 70 degrees in Colorado and it's February. Go figure. Hoped to get the bike out on the track on Saturday - all we needed was 10 people to pre-register. Well that didn't happen so had to improvise. Kart / Supermoto Track on Sunday!!! Technically it's a track day, but it's not really possible to get a full speed test out of it, hence the "kind of". I did three sessions on the KTM and one on my CRF450R super moto. My friend Adam (who's a substantially better rider than I - Pikes Peak Hill Climb, training for the Isle of Mann, etc) also took it out for a session. Below is our combined notes (in no particular order).

For what it's worth, I was running the stock Metzlers. I have not had a chance to mount new tires. I've also mounted clip-ons under the stock triple. I also raised the bike about 5mm (the top of the forks are sitting slightly lower in the triple). ABS was switched off for all sessions. Also, this is a Kart / Supermoto track, so it's tighter than I would normally experience in many ways (Phillip Island it is not).

• Bike wants to be ridden in a centered position.
  • Adam noted that when he tried to shift his body and hang off the bike he was sliding, either the front or back
  • If I got too far back, the rear wanted to slide
  • Both of us felt bike had to be ridden with an aggressive, elbows up MX style.
• Brakes
  • Getting fade on the one short straight (approx 80 MPH).
  • Definitely need better pads.
  • Maybe a brake bleeding as well.
  • Bike never felt chattery or bad feedback when hard on brakes and fading.
  • Need to figure a way to get the ABS module out and/or mount braided lines.
• Gearing
  • Need to go up one, maybe two in the rear to get better drive out of corners. We were both bogging and down shifting would not work as the revs would be too high and you'd end up spinning the rear wheel (as Adam encountered......).
• Chassis
  • As noted under Brakes, bike never felt sketchy even when sliding, hard braking etc. All the situations felt controlled, although it was not deliberate.
  • Bike feels relatively neutral input wise.
  • When staying more on the bike - scraping the begs.
• Suspension -
  • Rear is undersprung. Bottoming out on the stiffest setting (based on the high tech zip tie method).
  • Front - Never felt harsh or dove on braking, however, the addition of rebound and compression would be nice.
• Motor
  • Smooth power delivery
  • Not as abrupt as the supermoto
  • When down shifting, remember, there's no slipper and smoothly release the clutch..... I experienced some wheel hop....

 

[guzz46]

Interesting opinions, how did you go mounting the bars under the top yoke? to me it looks like they would hit the tank on full lock, also either your bike must has a different spring or you guys must be reasonably heavy, I'm 72kg in street clothes and find the rear to be spot on on the 7th position, got about 30mm of rider sag in full gear, I assume you've taken the hero blobs off the pegs? that gives roughly an extra 10mm of clearance, you could also try a taller 140/70 rear, that gives about another 5mm or so clearance, the stock Metzelers aren't very sticky, Dunlop Alpha-13's are very good, I've scrapped the edge of the belly pan due to a bump, but the pegs didn't touch.

I've had a few minor rear end slides, usually due to ripples, but it feels completely controlled, I've been running 32psi in the rear and 29 in the front, so I might try 29psi in the rear and see how it goes, I'm still experimenting with different riding positions seeing what effect it has on the bike, the rear end on mine gets a bit fish taily at times on the brakes (front brake only)
I've never experienced any brake fade, even when I had it on the track braking from 170kmh, but the front rotor did change to a blueish color by the end of the day, apparently it already has braided lines, I wonder if your bike has the same pads as mine? I assume your forks must be on the second ring through the yokes?

 

[fos373]

Guzz - Wasn't expecting much with the Metzler's and I'll be switching to Dunlops.

I'm ~ 180 lbs (80kg) and Adam is a little bigger (about 90kg). Adam was also out there riding his Honda RS125 so he is used to pushing a small bike.

I had to do a slight modification (cutting/hacking) of the plastic under fairing to fit the clip ons. Technically they fit, however there was a little cable rub on the throttle side. The clip ons are aligned where the bars would normally be and I had no issues with hitting the tank or anywhere else.

When I refer to braided lines, I'm referring to stainless. Mine are definitely rubber. It could just that it needs to be bled + some better pads.

 

[kalleh]

I

• Bike wants to be ridden in a centered position.
  • Adam noted that when he tried to shift his body and hang off the bike he was sliding, either the front or back
  • If I got too far back, the rear wanted to slide
  • Both of us felt bike had to be ridden with an aggressive, elbows up MX style.

I'm not much of an expert, but this screams really off suspension setup to me. Tires that are in the air doesn't grip well

 

[motoarch]

[/LIST]
[/LIST]
I'm not much of an expert, but this screams really off suspension setup to me. Tires that are in the air doesn't grip well

Yeah Im reading this the same way.

Did you ride this thing on the track before all the messing around with the front end.

 

[guzz46]

From what I've read on the net, the RC has the same brake lines as the duke, and the dukes are apparently braided, but the RC supposedly has a rubber jacket covering the lines, and from looking at mine there definitely is a rubber jacket, but I don't know if the lines underneath are braided or not, I assume they are.

And in regards to the rear end sliding, if I read your post correctly you were riding with the rear on max preload? when I had the rear on max it was very skittish, and slid quite easily, even over small bumps/ripples, I don't know if the effect would be the same with a heavier rider on board, but I think the rear end may need at least 10mm of static sag to perform properly.
I've yet to have any slides or moments on the front, its planted, I think it will feel a lot better when you put some stickier tyres on it, you may also need a slightly stiffer rear spring? have you measured your rider sag?

 

[Treachery]

I have the same puzzlement about the front end setup. It would seem that raising the front would result in slower steering, and at least some rearward weight shift. guzz- have you noticed any "preference" of the bike to be ridden without hanging off, or shifting weight side to side during cornering?

BTW, thx for the report, fos; I know I'm all ears about riding impressions, especially hard riding.

 

[guzz46]

I have the same puzzlement about the front end setup. It would seem that raising the front would result in slower steering, and at least some rearward weight shift. guzz- have you noticed any "preference" of the bike to be ridden without hanging off, or shifting weight side to side during cornering?

BTW, thx for the report, fos; I know I'm all ears about riding impressions, especially hard riding.

I thought fos raised the forks, but reading his post again he said he raised the front, so the forks are actually sitting lower in the yokes, which is the opposite of what I did, I raised the forks by 6mm, so I dropped the front by 6mm, and the front end felt much better (not that it felt bad to begin with) personally I wouldn't raise the front, but each to his own, fos have you ridden the bike with the forks raised to the second ring?

Trechery, the bike basically feels like every other sportsbike I've owned, in terms of hanging off feels better, I'm still experimenting with slight changes to my riding style, I only relatively recently started hanging the top half of my body off and keeping it low, like how they do in motogp now days, as opposed to how they used to ride back in the 1990's/early 2000's, on the next ride I'm going to try moving my ass back in the seat and lean further forward, from experimenting while sitting on the stand in the garage it feels like I can get lower down without having my elbows all cramped up, it may improve rear end grip too, but I'll have to wait and see what it feels like whilst moving, it's tricky changing your riding style when you've ridden a certain way for so long, but at the same time it's quite fun.

 

[fos373]

The weather is looking good for this weekend and if I can get out again I'll reverse my front end setup.

For what it's worth, steering never felt slow.

 

[fos373]

Went out again this weekend. Raised the forks so about 3mm was exposed and no front end slides. I'll raise them up to 5mm for the next outing and see how it handles.

The stock rear Metzler (which will be replaced with Dunlop Alpha 13's) doesn't provide the best results, but I'd rather burn it off while getting used to the bike rather than

All powerparts have been shipped but STILL waiting for them to be delivered ..... Ordered a set of EBC pads and will see how they work.

Rear shock is off and is going in to get shimmed today.

I've figured out how to get the ABS control unit off and am working on it. I'll post a separate thread once completed. It's a bit of a pain, but doable and I don't think (HOPING?) there will be any interference issues.

 

[guzz46]

I just measured my forks again and it appears that where I have it on the second ring is about 5.5mm, not 6mm, I must of got my initial measurement wrong, I haven't ridden the bike with one ring showing, but with two rings showing the front feels really planted and confidence inspiring.

I assume removing the ABS unit will require you to fit new brake lines?

 

[motoarch]

Why remove it? Trying to shed weight or is it really intrusive on this bike?

 

[guzz46]

Why remove it? Trying to shed weight or is it really intrusive on this bike?

You can disable it easily enough, so my guess is purely for weight savings, although I'll keep mine installed simply for the resale value, its easy enough to reconnect the rear sensor cable, but re-installing the ABS module I'm guessing would be a right pain in the ass.

 

[motoarch]

So you left the components but deactivated it? That implies it's intrusive to the point of making braking worse on the street? Or are you tracking it and finding you can brake hard enough into a turn? I'm still not getting why. Sorry for being so dense.

 

[guzz46]

Yes I left the components but deactivated it because I didn't like it, you can disable it with a button on the dash, but you have to do that every time you turn the bike on, so I just removed the rear sensor cable instead.
There's not a big difference, but I think at least in the dry stopping distances would be worse with ABS on, if I ride along at 60kmh-70kmh and do an emergency stop, when the bike slows down enough (I'm guessing around 30kmh give or take) the brake lever gets a bit spongy and pulses a bit, if I do the same with ABS off its like every other bike, the bike stops fast without pulsing and lever stays solid, nice and consistent.
I didn't have ABS on when I had it at track, but I can't see how it would be any benefit? in nearly 20 years of riding on the road I've never locked the front, so for me I don't see the point in having it.

 

[motoarch]

It's ok to not like a thing. Was just curious.

I've heard most people don't like abs on the track because if it's too active it makes hard braking difficult. I was just curious if that was the case.

I've never had a bike with abs so I have no idea.

 

[guzz46]

I wasn't being defensive or anything this is the first bike I've owned with ABS, and I kind of wished KTM made a non ABS version, but at least it can be disabled.
It looks like this will be the norm soon, because the EU have voted in favour of mandatory ABS for new motorcycles over 125cc from 2016.

 

[fos373]

My intention of removing the ABS system is slightly weight - I really don't think it weighs that much (not compared to the Exide battery) - but mainly because I want to run stainless braided lines direct from the master for the front and do away with all the superfluous rear lines.

Yes, you could still run stainless lines with the ABS system in place, but by the time you removed the lines why not just remove the ABS system. Also, it sits right above the engine and I'm worried about heat and brake lines. Seems like an odd place - kind of like the catalytic converter and the shock......

I'm racing the bike - and prefer simplicity. As Guzz pointed out, it can be easily disengaged without removing. However, if I'm in there, it's coming out. Guzz, I assume you just unplugged the front and rear ABS sensor cables going into the ABS system?

I ran the ABS "ON" for one track session and it was not intrusive. I actually never noticed it. The lack of slipper clutch was much more noticeable than the ABS system - if it ever came on. Drop a gear while braking and quickly (if at all) release the clutch and the back end is locking up / sliding. Much like an MXer it was designed after.

 

[guzz46]

I don't know for sure but I'm guessing I probably wouldn't of noticed a difference if I had ABS on while at the track, seeing as the slowest corner was only 50kmh and I only noticed the pulsing when the speed dropped below that, for me its more about emergency braking situations on the road, like when a car pulls out in front of you and you need to come to a halt as quickly as possible, I wan't a nice consistent feel front the front brake, not a spongy pulsing front brake.

I removed the rear sensor cable only, where it connects by the rear brake reservoir, you could keep the cable in place and just unplug it if you wanted, I tried removing the front sensor cable first but found out it doubles as the speedo sensor too, so no speedo or odometer, unplugging the rear sensor cable disables the entire ABS system while keeping your speedo and odometer working