Race tyre experiences

[Tack Reacher]

Hey, as there seems to be a fair few racers and track day riders here I just though I would ask who's running what in what race series......I used to be a race tyre techniciain for race teams and even got to work at two rounds of the WSBK but haven't had much experience with Pirelli, michelin, continental or bridgestone tyres...or in america...... tires...as in....I have used them on race tracks and I know what they do but don't know much about their carcass design or blends from their tyre engineers etc etc

anyway...most people running the supersport championships here in Australia are running pirelli...as is obviously...the world supersport 300 championship....I ran the SC! front and rear on a CBR300R with a 110/70 front and a 150/60 rear (the 140 rear is only available in sc2) some have tried the new dunlop alpha 14's but they have been about 2 secs slower than the pirelli...some have tried the bridgestone R11's but they come in only a medium compound and are also about 2 to 3 seconds slower, others have run the continentals and found that they are very soft and work great at some tracks but overheat and tear badly at others...

The funny thing is that there is a national dunlop series and all the front runners ran pirelli's...but you only got points if you ran dunlops...lol

Obviously, what works well where you are depends on heat ranges and the macro/micro structure of your race track and the layout...for example phillip island here has many high load long duration corners which really heat the tyres to huge temperatures whereas another track with the same asphalt pebble mix as philip island doesn't create anywhere near the heat due to its layout....even though the ambient/track temps are higher also...

So...what's everyone running and how do they go in competition??

thanks

 

[Superpacman13]

Hey, as there seems to be a fair few racers and track day riders here I just though I would ask who's running what in what race series......I used to be a race tyre techniciain for race teams and even got to work at two rounds of the WSBK but haven't had much experience with Pirelli, michelin, continental or bridgestone tyres...or in america...... tires...as in....I have used them on race tracks and I know what they do but don't know much about their carcass design or blends from their tyre engineers etc etc

anyway...most people running the supersport championships here in Australia are running pirelli...as is obviously...the world supersport 300 championship....I ran the SC! front and rear on a CBR300R with a 110/70 front and a 150/60 rear (the 140 rear is only available in sc2) some have tried the new dunlop alpha 14's but they have been about 2 secs slower than the pirelli...some have tried the bridgestone R11's but they come in only a medium compound and are also about 2 to 3 seconds slower, others have run the continentals and found that they are very soft and work great at some tracks but overheat and tear badly at others...

The funny thing is that there is a national dunlop series and all the front runners ran pirelli's...but you only got points if you ran dunlops...lol

Obviously, what works well where you are depends on heat ranges and the macro/micro structure of your race track and the layout...for example phillip island here has many high load long duration corners which really heat the tyres to huge temperatures whereas another track with the same asphalt pebble mix as philip island doesn't create anywhere near the heat due to its layout....even though the ambient/track temps are higher also...

So...what's everyone running and how do they go in competition??

thanks

Dunlop is coming out with a slick this year so anyone with a brain will be taking those.

 

[Tack Reacher]

so your saying everyone else is stupid???

 

[Superpacman13]

so your saying everyone else is stupid???

A slick will out perform all other options that are currently on the market. Not calling anyone stupid.

 

[Tack Reacher]

you said anyone with a brain....implying that you know everything and anyone else who doesn't know that is stupid...for a vendor that's a pretty antagonistic approach to take on a forum.....especially considering you didn't answer the question.

nothing is true until its proven and from what you have said it hasn't even been tested against anything yet so how do you really know......for something to be absolutely true there can't be any exceptions and there are plenty...so in reality if its a second or so quicker than their alpha it will be still slower than the pirelli.

Is it going to work at every track under every ambient temperature all round the world.....according to you it is.....so it's a miracle tyre is it...a magic tyre...good on you.

 

[simpletty]

I highly doubt that Dunlop will make a slick, market it, and “hope” it works. Tire technology has moved leaps and bounds in the past few years. Possibly, and this is just that...possibly, they might know what the *^%£ they are doing when it comes to slicks since they kinda supply a couple small branches of road racing. That being MOTO3 and MOTO2. So maybe, just maybe they will bring some of those ideas into the design of the new slick for the 390 and it’s competition. I agree the alpha 13 was garbage and that made me switch to pirelli. Having rode on slicks in the past I would agree you would have to be “stupid” not to think that they would not work better than a dot race/street legal tire. It’s also very unlikely they will make a single compound slick. Even pirelli makes a couple for the 390. I think Dunlop has been around long enough to know what they are doing. I don’t think that PacMan meant anything derogatory with his comments, I’m thinking it’s highly unlikely that you yourself may have in some context phrased a sentence to a friend in that sort of fashion. I have myself, knowing that it’s somewhat of a sarcastic way, so I fail to see the fact of where he, or myself for the matter, by using the phrase, knows everything and everyone else is stupid.


But....Like I had said they make slicks for motogp and pirelli doesnÂ’t. They have plenty of real world results with slicks and positively will move that into the 390 and itÂ’s competitors.
I donÂ’t claim to know anything but I know some things

you said anyone with a brain....implying that you know everything and anyone else who doesn't know that is stupid...for a vendor that's a pretty antagonistic approach to take on a forum.....especially considering you didn't answer the question.

nothing is true until its proven and from what you have said it hasn't even been tested against anything yet so how do you really know......for something to be absolutely true there can't be any exceptions and there are plenty...so in reality if its a second or so quicker than their alpha it will be still slower than the pirelli.

Is it going to work at every track under every ambient temperature all round the world.....according to you it is.....so it's a miracle tyre is it...a magic tyre...good on you.

 

[thunderrun53]

We've played with a few tire options during testing, but we only run Pirelli during a race. We've been pretty happy with the SC1 up front with a 120/60 in a slick. We used a 150 SC2 in the back at the start of last season but eventually moved to a 140 SC2 and got much better results. This is all for endurance racing in Texas during the summer. It get's hot, damn hot. The Pirellis have really held up the best for us. There has been a small movement in our race series towards the Continental tires. I haven't really seen any huge benefit to the switch aside from a higher contingency. A smaller group of teams run Dunlop or Michelin with mixed results as well.

At the end of the day, the teams in CMRA that hold the lap records and most championships run Pirelli.

 

[simpletty]

I run the pirellis as well. Generally speaking I get one front for every two rear tires. Switching to the 140 makes for a definite improvement in results. The lap record for lightweight at chuckwalla was set on a R3 on Dunlop’s. I know because I get beat by him every round. So...it’s not all just the tire

We've played with a few tire options during testing, but we only run Pirelli during a race. We've been pretty happy with the SC1 up front with a 120/60 in a slick. We used a 150 SC2 in the back at the start of last season but eventually moved to a 140 SC2 and got much better results. This is all for endurance racing in Texas during the summer. It get's hot, damn hot. The Pirellis have really held up the best for us. There has been a small movement in our race series towards the Continental tires. I haven't really seen any huge benefit to the switch aside from a higher contingency. A smaller group of teams run Dunlop or Michelin with mixed results as well.

At the end of the day, the teams in CMRA that hold the lap records and most championships run Pirelli.

 

[Tack Reacher]

I highly doubt that Dunlop will make a slick, market it, and “hope” it works. Tire technology has moved leaps and bounds in the past few years. Possibly, and this is just that...possibly, they might know what the *^%£ they are doing when it comes to slicks since they kinda supply a couple small branches of road racing. That being MOTO3 and MOTO2. So maybe, just maybe they will bring some of those ideas into the design of the new slick for the 390 and it’s competition. I agree the alpha 13 was garbage and that made me switch to pirelli. Having rode on slicks in the past I would agree you would have to be “stupid” not to think that they would not work better than a dot race/street legal tire. It’s also very unlikely they will make a single compound slick. Even pirelli makes a couple for the 390. I think Dunlop has been around long enough to know what they are doing. I don’t think that PacMan meant anything derogatory with his comments, I’m thinking it’s highly unlikely that you yourself may have in some context phrased a sentence to a friend in that sort of fashion. I have myself, knowing that it’s somewhat of a sarcastic way, so I fail to see the fact of where he, or myself for the matter, by using the phrase, knows everything and everyone else is stupid.


But....Like I had said they make slicks for motogp and pirelli doesnÂ’t. They have plenty of real world results with slicks and positively will move that into the 390 and itÂ’s competitors.
I donÂ’t claim to know anything but I know some things

You're missing the point......Dunlop is real good at making control tyres....when they compete head to head with other manufacturers on the world stage they lose....why ......because they don't spend the money on research and development......why..because its too expensive....for what its worth ...racing is just a form of advertising to most tyre companies and all of them hate to compete head to head because it drives up the cost...so tyre companies do deals and supply classes either free or at a greatly reduced price which in turn reduces the price to competitors and then they advertise to everyone saying...hey what a great tyre we have.....they also pay series people for the right....all the tyre company has to do then is make sure they don't embarrass themselves with delaminations....so they go for durability...safety...consistency......those kind of descriptive words do not equal cutting edge technology or huge research and development.......or unbelievable speed....

some tyre companies do make racing tyres commercially but again...its either aimed at some class of racing as a control series or makes a tyre that is fairly bullet proof to sell around the world from countries with really cold conditions to places that are really hot......if tyres don't suit particular places they won't sell them there...they do not make tyres for individual markets unless the sales are huge and its cost effective..

So Dunlop are making a slick...why? what's it aimed at? Are they making it for America only? Are they aiming at supersport 300 bikes...if so...are they aiming at a control tyres series....if so...they don't have to beat anyone...do they? They only have to make a durable consist tyre thats heap and racers are happy to use, that is cost effective and reasonable quality. Dunlop race suppliers are happy because they have a captive market and make money, the organisers are happy because they have a share....the only people losing out of it are the dopes that have to pay to race.and buy them

Moto2 technology or moto3 technology....its a slick tyre that meets a purpose.....nothing more...the technology in the tyre could be 10 years old which is ok as long as it is fit for purpose...that's all it is......all the rest is just marketing...which people here seem to be sucked in by. Quite frankly, I have worked for a race tyre company right up to the top levels and it's not what you obviously think it is. the only time they will go running back to the lab is if they have a big problem. Even then they will pull out something they know works....

So what I originally asked is what have people been running and what is their experience.....a dunlop that doesn't exist yet and which we know nothing about is useless.

 

[Tack Reacher]

Besides, I don't know what happens in america, but I doubt whether slicks will be allowed in a production based formula anywhere else.
I think you call them DOT tyres.....but street legal racing radials were developed by tyre companies specifically for supersport production racing..

 

[thunderrun53]

I agree that tires are subjective. You can put Rossi on a tricycle with shinkos and he'd still destroy the rest of us with DOT race or spec tires. I used to race in ASMA and the faster unlimited bike guys would run the UK Dunlops with success.

I run the pirellis as well. Generally speaking I get one front for every two rear tires. Switching to the 140 makes for a definite improvement in results. The lap record for lightweight at chuckwalla was set on a R3 on Dunlop’s. I know because I get beat by him every round. So...it’s not all just the tire

 

[Tack Reacher]

I agree that tires are subjective. You can put Rossi on a tricycle with shinkos and he'd still destroy the rest of us with DOT race or spec tires. I used to race in ASMA and the faster unlimited bike guys would run the UK Dunlops with success.

Jeremy Burgess and Mick doohan used to have an 80/20 rule....80% rider 20% bike. Although high level electronics may have altered that percentage somewhat today. But really it doesn't matter what someone else can do it's really a matter of what works for you and your bike on whatever track you are at and in the particular ambient/track temps.

You only have to look at motoGP for example. They do not take the same tyres to every track in soft medium or Hard. Nor do they take the same constructions for each. Additional they run asymetric tyres for some tracks.

Not only that each rider runs a combination of either medium of or hard or soft to other riders....sometimes it's the same but Marquez for example runs Hards on the front usually while others can get away with mediums or even softs.

Surely all of that should tell you something!

No one tyre suits every condition or rider or bike or track or ambient/track temperature whether its a slick or not. To make random statement is nonsense because there is always exceptions to what you think is the rule. there is always someone who is such a good rider that they will still beat someone on slicks. the main reason is that motorcycle racing is grip limited. Some people can ride right on the traction/grip envelop whereas other ride well within it. The consequences of exceeding grip limits are pretty harsh in motorcycle racing.

I think Stoner once commeted that Rossi's ambition exceeded his talent on one corner.

 

[Tack Reacher]

Err...back on topic.

I Run Bridgestone R11 on the bike...production racing.
Cost is significantly less than the Pirelli and the tyre has great feedback and better life. I used the Pirelli and found they would stick like shit to a blanket but when they let go they did so with no warning...I get better feel and more feedback through the R11 on the front.

So how do you go in the field?? I take it's at Barbagello? how do you go in the field?? Have you run at other tracks?

 

[John390]

I run the pirellis as well. Generally speaking I get one front for every two rear tires. Switching to the 140 makes for a definite improvement in results. The lap record for lightweight at chuckwalla was set on a R3 on Dunlop’s. I know because I get beat by him every round. So...it’s not all just the tire

so, let me get this straight. you guys go faster with LESS tire on the rear??

Please explain that one to me. I get that it will be lighter, but more contact with the cement should be more grip no?

I'm new to bikes apparently.

thanks!

 

[simpletty]

so, let me get this straight. you guys go faster with LESS tire on the rear??

Please explain that one to me. I get that it will be lighter, but more contact with the cement should be more grip no?

I'm new to bikes apparently.

thanks!

Its about how the bike handles, not less weight or contact patch. Bike geometry works better with the 140 on the track for how I ride.

 

[simpletty]

Jeremy Burgess and Mick doohan used to have an 80/20 rule....80% rider 20% bike. Although high level electronics may have altered that percentage somewhat today. But really it doesn't matter what someone else can do it's really a matter of what works for you and your bike on whatever track you are at and in the particular ambient/track temps.

You only have to look at motoGP for example. They do not take the same tyres to every track in soft medium or Hard. Nor do they take the same constructions for each. Additional they run asymetric tyres for some tracks.

Not only that each rider runs a combination of either medium of or hard or soft to other riders....sometimes it's the same but Marquez for example runs Hards on the front usually while others can get away with mediums or even softs.

Surely all of that should tell you something!

No one tyre suits every condition or rider or bike or track or ambient/track temperature whether its a slick or not. To make random statement is nonsense because there is always exceptions to what you think is the rule. there is always someone who is such a good rider that they will still beat someone on slicks. the main reason is that motorcycle racing is grip limited. Some people can ride right on the traction/grip envelop whereas other ride well within it. The consequences of exceeding grip limits are pretty harsh in motorcycle racing.

I think Stoner once commeted that Rossi's ambition exceeded his talent on one corner.

I’m not sure what this has to do with slick vs dot. Or “Dunlop can’t make a slick it’s just a control tire”. I think the debate has gone out the window.

 

[Tack Reacher]

I’m not sure what this has to do with slick vs dot. Or “Dunlop can’t make a slick it’s just a control tire”. I think the debate has gone out the window.

I was commenting on his post. It had nothing to do with slick vs dot tyres.

Nor did not say that Dunlop can't make a slick. What I said was that Dunlop loves control tyre series where they are the only player. I will add that they are real good at out performing limited customer or commercial tyres where a manufacturer has only one compound and construction available to the masses. however, if you put them in direct competition with the other manufacturers they get beat.

That's not the same thing as putting tyres forward for a control series. Performance of the tyre is not the only selection criteria. It's a complete package, logistics, personnel, support, price etc etc and the size of the payment to the organizers carries a lot of weight. Again it also depends on whether the manufacturer wants to be involved. Quit often no one is interested because they believe that it doesn't increase sales or it's not cost effective. All these decisions that are made at a board level and reflect company sustainability and market direction for profits. All tyre manufacturers make commercial decisions.....what else would you expect??? Do you think their all busting their gut to get into Moto2 or Moto3?? they mostly couldn't care less. Because its not commercially viable for them.

So, it is entirely possible that Dunlop is the only company that actually tendered for the task.So who in their right mind would spend a huge amount of money on research and development when they don't have to.

But, gees, if Dunlop is in Moto2 and Moto3 do you really think they make the best tyres on the planet?? Do you really?? Do you only buy Dunlop tyres for your bike based on their vast technical superiority? Here you are saying you run Pirellis and your getting beat by a guy on Dunlops?

All I simply wanted to do was ask what tyres people are running on their RC390 and how they go on them. I thought that it would be interesting. But you seem to want to get all bent and twisted because I took exception to an unnecessarily arrogant comment from of all people but a vendor.

For what its worth I spent 15 years working for a Japanese race tyre company and was even offered a job by two different world superbike teams and one international tyre supplier. However rightly or wrongly I wanted to stay where I was.

 

[Andy]

Its about how the bike handles, not less weight or contact patch. Bike geometry works better with the 140 on the track for how I ride.

I’ll second that I changed to a 140 rear also from the Metzeler to a Pirelli and it’s made so much difference!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Tack Reacher]

so, let me get this straight. you guys go faster with LESS tire on the rear??

Please explain that one to me. I get that it will be lighter, but more contact with the cement should be more grip no?

I'm new to bikes apparently.

thanks!

If you don't mind I will post up an article by Pirelli...mind you I don't work for pirelli and I will run any tyre thats proven to work. If you read this you will see that sometimes things can be counter intuitive.It might also help some people understand why they might be being beat by someone else

The Dream Compound
Each year, in addition to our production tyres, Pirelli develops thirty or so development models for the Superbike World Championshipalone, with the most important changes in the tyres being found in the compounds. But why is the compound used in a tyre—and especially in a motorcycle tyre—so crucial?
Since 2004, Pirelli has been the official sole tyre provider for all classes of the FIM Superbike World Championship, which includes Superbike, Supersport, Superstock 1000, Superstock 600, and European Junior Cup. The tyres used in world championship racing, as well as in the various national championships in which Pirelli is involved, are production tyres available to the public. Specifically, DIABLO™ Supercorsa tyres are used in all categories except Superbike, where the DIABLO™ Superbike slick tyres are used. Throughout the year, Pirelli then presents a number of other development solutions.


To what end? At Pirelli, the goal is to develop a range of tyres that are as versatile as possible and suitable for use on any bike and to meet the needs of every racer and every track. There is no single tyre or compound that can meet all of these needs, which is why our range of tyres is updated and improved each year with the help of our efforts for World Superbike and for the various national championships.


While it’s true that there’s no such thing as an all-purpose compound, Pirelli does have a fairly limited range in terms of number of solutions because each type is highly versatile and has a wide array of applications. Specifically, we have two compounds for the front tyre, the SC1 and SC2, and three for the back, the SC0, SC1 and SC2. The rear-tyre SC2, which is the hardest compound, is finding increasingly limited use in world championship races, but it is still constantly updated for local championships, such as for British SBK, the German IDM, and the other championship of northern Europe, where they need a tyre that can stand up to the colder temperatures.


Conversely, the SC0 is the softest rear tyre and is the most popular in World Superbike because, in recent years, Pirelli has significantly broadened its range of application, so now this tyre can be used at lower temperatures than in the past. When the SC0 can no longer be used, the SC1 then comes into play. This mid-range compound can be used on most types of tarmac and temperatures, but because it is harder, it offers less grip than the SC0.


And how do riders pick the best compound to be used during a race?


Normally, the choice of which compound to be used for a motorcycle race is fairly simple because their a certain basic rules to be followed; however, it is still possible for the uninitiated to make a mistake because the reasoning behind tyre selection for a motorcycle is not the same as for a four-wheeled vehicle.


Without getting overly technical, let’s just say that heat softens a tyre, which is why a harder compound is preferred for a car as temperatures rise, and a softer compound is chosen as temperatures fall. When it comes to cars, the tyres have a very wide contact patch, and the vehicle's power is best transferred to the road when the tyre is able to penetrate as much as possible into the tarmac, which is achieved as the weight of the car presses down on the tyre. However, at the same time, this contact patch has to remain firm in order to lend stability to the vehicle. A soft tyre may not provide adequate support, thereby compromising steering precision and resulting in oversteer or understeer depending on the characteristics of the tyre. This is why a harder compound is preferred on a car as temperatures rise.

But let’s see what happens when we only have two wheels. The main difference between a car and a motorcycle lies in the tyre’s contact patch. On a motorcycle, the area of contact is much smaller—roughly the size of a credit card—and the load applied to the tyre is nowhere near that of a car. For this reason, in order to achieve grip, we need a tyre that is soft enough to penetrate the tarmac, particularly when the tarmac itself provides little grip either because it has been worn down with age or because the surface is particularly hot. Although the tarmac itself is made of a material that is nearly insensitive to changes in temperature, as temperatures rise, the efficiency of the compound declines because it is made of a thermoplastic material that changes significantly in terms of stiffness and grip as temperatures rise and fall. Under higher temperatures, a hard compound loses grip, so we need a softer compound, such as the SC0, which can penetrate into the tarmac and provide the traction we need during the race. This is why a hard compound deteriorates faster than a soft one as temperatures rise. In other words, with a car the primary objective is driving precision, whereas with a motorcycle it's grip, which leads to the opposite choice of compound compared to a car.

Easy, right? Actually, it doesn’t end there, because what we’ve just seen above only applies to a motorcycle's rear tyre. When it comes to the front tyre, Pirelli uses the same strategy as for cars. The semi-soft SC1 compound for the front tyre is generally used at lower temperatures, while the harder SC2 is used at warmer temperatures.

In order to understand the logic behind the choice of front tyre, we need to look at what happens to a soft tyre and at high temperatures during braking. When braking before a curve, the front tyre compresses, and as the racer enters the curve, he releases the break, and the tyre regains its elasticity, which can cause vibrations, imprecision and understeer. This effect is amplified with a softer compound, which is why Pirelli follows the same strategy as a car for a motorcycle's front tyre, opting for harder compounds, such as the SC2, which ensure the right precision. Conversely, as temperatures fall, we can go with softer compounds, like the SC1, which, at these lower temperatures, are still able to provide the precision and support needed to guide the motorcycle. However, while riders nearly always agree on using a softer rear tyre in order to have the most grip, the selection of the front tyre is more complicated and often depends a great deal on the rider's racing style and personal preferences.

.

 

[simpletty]

I was commenting on his post. It had nothing to do with slick vs dot tyres.

Nor did not say that Dunlop can't make a slick. What I said was that Dunlop loves control tyre series where they are the only player. I will add that they are real good at out performing limited customer or commercial tyres where a manufacturer has only one compound and construction available to the masses. however, if you put them in direct competition with the other manufacturers they get beat.

That's not the same thing as putting tyres forward for a control series. Performance of the tyre is not the only selection criteria. It's a complete package, logistics, personnel, support, price etc etc and the size of the payment to the organizers carries a lot of weight. Again it also depends on whether the manufacturer wants to be involved. Quit often no one is interested because they believe that it doesn't increase sales or it's not cost effective. All these decisions that are made at a board level and reflect company sustainability and market direction for profits. All tyre manufacturers make commercial decisions.....what else would you expect??? Do you think their all busting their gut to get into Moto2 or Moto3?? they mostly couldn't care less. Because its not commercially viable for them.

So, it is entirely possible that Dunlop is the only company that actually tendered for the task.So who in their right mind would spend a huge amount of money on research and development when they don't have to.

But, gees, if Dunlop is in Moto2 and Moto3 do you really think they make the best tyres on the planet?? Do you really?? Do you only buy Dunlop tyres for your bike based on their vast technical superiority? Here you are saying you run Pirellis and your getting beat by a guy on Dunlops?

All I simply wanted to do was ask what tyres people are running on their RC390 and how they go on them. I thought that it would be interesting. But you seem to want to get all bent and twisted because I took exception to an unnecessarily arrogant comment from of all people but a vendor.

For what its worth I spent 15 years working for a Japanese race tyre company and was even offered a job by two different world superbike teams and one international tyre supplier. However rightly or wrongly I wanted to stay where I was.

I donÂ’t assume that Dunlop makes the best tires on the planet. Obviously I said that I run pirelli tires because I prefer them over the old alpha 13 which were not a good tire. I had stated that the lightweight track record is held by a guy who runs the new DunlopÂ’s. I tried to explain that you took the statement made out of context. I doubt it was meant in any way other than sarcastically. IÂ’m not interested in your resume or area of expertise, I donÂ’t advertise mine here but I do try to offer help from having experience on the bike on the track. Experience from working on the bike mechanically, what works for me may not work for you etc. I own and race 2 that I have converted into race duty alone. One for dry and one is strictly for the rain.
I donÂ’t claim to know what will happen if Dunlop makes a slick. I hope itÂ’s better than the pirelli. Club level racing is not motogp, or wsbk itÂ’s just club racing where we donÂ’t need a multitude of tire levels. We need one decent one that works well enough for the skill level. The guy who runs the DunlopÂ’s is probably one of the best up and coming racers IÂ’ve seen in a decade and has talent, enough so that he was selected for the British talent cup. I donÂ’t have his skill, heÂ’s better than everyone and uses the DunlopÂ’s. He would beat me on pirellis, he would beat me on the crappy alpha 13 tires IÂ’m sure of it. I think we have beat this horse enough. ItÂ’s so dead and tired. LetÂ’s agree on that