The Monkey and the Banana

[B7ACKTHORN]

The Duke when launched had such an immense success, it almost took the Indian motorcycling arena by storm. Everyone who was looking for a performance motorcycle at an affordable price, were so eager to get their hands on an Indian made machine, mainly with service availability backed by Bajaj it seemed a viable option.

But just after a few thousand units were sold, almost immediately Indian forums were flooded with too many problems reported by users, though they weren't substantial considering a ground up work bike, repetition of the issue is where it almost stinged and painfully for customers.

Waiting for almost a year to get the issues resolved I was eager to book myself a 390 (still skeptical) because it still is a Bajaj, at the end of the day.

Apart from forums flooded with issues like weeping head gasket, leaking coolant O ring, busted fork oil seals, speedo console going kaput, ABS sensor getting screwed up, rear suspension bottoming out due to a piston issue inside the shock, too many to digest, though all these issues were either present in 3 out of 10 bikes sold. Though most were covered by warranty it still stings to have issues like this in a KTM. Mind you all these issues were less than 5k kms on the odo.

Though I haven't ridden the Husky, I've had quite a few opportunities to ride bikes like the SXF 250 and experience the RC1190, the build quality, fit and finish of what KTM offers here in India to Austrian made stuff is literally light years away.

I will reiterate my personal opinions here.

On a scale of 1 to 10

Forks 7.5/10 (Crap quality stinky fork oil used, and poor quality fork oil seals)
Chassis 8.5/10 ( Paint quality not upto the mark, you can see some touch up and flat spots, buffering? I don't know, but I don't like it)
Tyres 10/10
Switchgear 4/10 (too cheap to begin with, again Bajaj parts bin)
Grips 2/10 (Bajaj crap here)
9.5/10 Headlamps (Gernan stuff, and beam throw is excellent)
5.5/10 (Plastic components used on the bike throughout, don;t seem they're well built)
3/10 (quality of rubber components used on the bike right from license plate holder to overall rubber damper and bushings worse on the Duke)
3/10 (Totally cheap levers, could of have used forged ones)
8/10 ABS
5/10 Brakes (Though Brembo collaboration, brake calipers look cheap and hand casted both front and rear, if you look at Brembo, Nissin and Tokico calipers you'll see how the finish is. Too cheap calipers, coupled with even cheaper squeaky brake pads) Bajaj parts bin, cheap crap again. Just that it has four pot, looks good in papers.
Alloys 7/10 (Bling factor included, earlier batches were notoriously prone to cracking or at least that was the case with quite a few owners, KTM said they have improved the alloy quality, on 2014 and above, that's yet to be seen. They ain't Marchesini, some cheap quality alloy manufactured in China.
Engine 9/10 ( Lord almightly knows hows the quality of the components used in the engine, but apart from leaky head gasket and leaky coolant O ring it was a blast. Would I trust this engine for quality? Hell, no.

5/10 Footpegs and rearsets and holders. Improperly finished cheap cast materials, won't even last a single fall with a hefty rider. (KTM has mentioned they are using forged on the RC series rather than cast on the D390. Why KTM why?

I've owned the bike for less than 9 months, my bike had its rear shocker changed (leaky rear suspension), leaky coolant O ring (sealed with paste, since they didn't have the O ring) speedometer console changed (water seeping in) left hand side switch gear changed (faulty hi/low switch)

Coupled with vibrations near the tank area, I've stripped the bike to bare bones myself to find out where, still that buzzing annoying noise (Oh please don't say it's a single and it's in its genes)

Front brake squeaked, squealed, removed the caliper, sand papered all the edges, de greased, voila it happens again (Poor quality stuff again, all over)

All these were less than 1500 KMS on the odo, I am the type who has a keen eye for how things are put together, how they work and how they work in tandem with one another. I had my hopes set high for this motorcycle, but it proved too bad for my taste.

I loved the handling, the tyres (amazing stuff) the engine pull, the attraction, the bling factor, turning heads, I can go on and on, but all these won't matter, if you know she isn't gonna last as you'd want her to.

These are my humble opinions of my KTM Duke 390 not the RC, having been owned for six months, riding less than 1500 kays on the odo.

Bottomline:

Would I suggest you to buy this bike? If you're a long termer like me, NO. If you're looking for fun, disposable bikes, then this is the one for you.

How long would it last in general, or what kays I can ride before I dunk it? Well, it depends, I for one would suggest a 30k max, that is if you're a real good care taker of the bike. Don't even -- ever consider that'd you'd get the kays you get out of a Jap. Well, if someone does, good for you.

Will it turn heads? No questions, she sure would.

Regards,
VJ

 

[ToraTora]

Pealing the Banana

Great post!

I've a lot to say about this, but it's rather late and I'm tired so I'll try to make it quick.

The nice thing about inexpensive bikes is that you don't have to feel so bad about spending money on them. The unfortunate thing is that you have to spend money on them.

As posted previously I think the brakes could do with a complete replacement. An actual Brembo setup with braided lines seems like the best idea--much depends on the measurements though.

As for the other side, Domino makes a really sweet clutch lever which can be found on all of the recent Moto3, and MotoGP125 bikes. The don't look all that fancy, but they work like magic. They go for about $100, but are totally worth it–which is why you'll find them on all the Moto3/GP125 bikes.

Re-powder coating the frame, and some other bits wouldn't be difficult. Give opportunity for other colors as well.

Switch gear could be replaced with stuff from Domino–if the stock stuff is really that crapy.

I'm sure it wouldn't be too difficult to get some all balls seals. If you let me know what the stock seal sizes are I'll do the research for the all balls seals. I run these on my other bikes and they are great/affordable, and really easy to get.

Really though, manufactures just aren't willing to market a great little bike. We are lucky just to get something that's a step above okay. The euro companies were building some pretty decent Sixteener bikes for a while. The 2005 GPR was pretty sweet for something on which to start building. The current GPR is much less of a bike thanks to Paggio reintegrating some old bits hanging out on the Aprilia shelf. :/

The Japanese seem to be pushed a little bit by the announcement of the RC/Duke. The sales numbers may wake them up, but my expectations of them building something great are really low, because they just don't market bikes that way. The current N,R, and CBR offerings are fine illustrations of their lack of enthusiasm to build a great little bike.

The KTM RC cup bikes look to have better bits in many of the areas you mentioned. Lets hope that the cup parts have decent build quality.

Anyway, thanks for the bananas!

 

[Treachery]

I imagine that what ToraTora says is true: The manufacturers aren't willing (or perhaps able) to bring us small + quality + reasonable price all in one package. Unfortunate if so. One of the attractions here in the US is a small bike with KTM prestige, and at least perceived quality.

B7ACKTHORN- How long has the RC390 been on sale in India? Have you had the opportunity to eyeball it and the Duke side by side to see what if any equipment differences there are? Fasteners and rubber bits are likely the same, so that may present a "need to replace" situation. Depending on how long it has been available there, do you have fellow riders who have a reasonable number of kms on theirs? If so, what have their experiences been? I'd be eager for that feedback as it develops.

Again, thanks for the very detailed report and your impressions. I look forward to more.

 

[B7ACKTHORN]

Great post!

I've a lot to say about this, but it's rather late and I'm tired so I'll try to make it quick.

The nice thing about inexpensive bikes is that you don't have to feel so bad about spending money on them. The unfortunate thing is that you have to spend money on them.

As posted previously I think the brakes could do with a complete replacement. An actual Brembo setup with braided lines seems like the best idea--much depends on the measurements though.

As for the other side, Domino makes a really sweet clutch lever which can be found on all of the recent Moto3, and MotoGP125 bikes. The don't look all that fancy, but they work like magic. They go for about $100, but are totally worth it–which is why you'll find them on all the Moto3/GP125 bikes.

Re-powder coating the frame, and some other bits wouldn't be difficult. Give opportunity for other colors as well.

Switch gear could be replaced with stuff from Domino–if the stock stuff is really that crapy.

I'm sure it wouldn't be too difficult to get some all balls seals. If you let me know what the stock seal sizes are I'll do the research for the all balls seals. I run these on my other bikes and they are great/affordable, and really easy to get.

Really though, manufactures just aren't willing to market a great little bike. We are lucky just to get something that's a step above okay. The euro companies were building some pretty decent Sixteener bikes for a while. The 2005 GPR was pretty sweet for something on which to start building. The current GPR is much less of a bike thanks to Paggio reintegrating some old bits hanging out on the Aprilia shelf. :/

The Japanese seem to be pushed a little bit by the announcement of the RC/Duke. The sales numbers may wake them up, but my expectations of them building something great are really low, because they just don't market bikes that way. The current N,R, and CBR offerings are fine illustrations of their lack of enthusiasm to build a great little bike.

The KTM RC cup bikes look to have better bits in many of the areas you mentioned. Lets hope that the cup parts have decent build quality.

Anyway, thanks for the bananas!

Well, ToraTora, you can't get all the bananas, can you!

I imagine that what ToraTora says is true: The manufacturers aren't willing (or perhaps able) to bring us small + quality + reasonable price all in one package. Unfortunate if so. One of the attractions here in the US is a small bike with KTM prestige, and at least perceived quality.

B7ACKTHORN- How long has the RC390 been on sale in India? Have you had the opportunity to eyeball it and the Duke side by side to see what if any equipment differences there are? Fasteners and rubber bits are likely the same, so that may present a "need to replace" situation. Depending on how long it has been available there, do you have fellow riders who have a reasonable number of kms on theirs? If so, what have their experiences been? I'd be eager for that feedback as it develops.

Again, thanks for the very detailed report and your impressions. I look forward to more.

The motorcycle was showcased in 2012 EICMA show in Milan, Italy and went on sale in in India in June, 2013. The KTM RC was launched the following year, mid 2014.

I've had quite a few friends of mine, who were so eager to sell their bikes, with less than 20k on the odo. Too many to live with, some can't handle the inherent problems, some can't ride in B2B traffic, and some had it with repeated visits to service station. It's kind of a potpourri -- mixed bag, to put it better way, for their reasons to dispose the bike off.

But almost all had gasket leaks or weeps, I know a guy who had replaced his front right fork seal more than thrice and still it had leaks. Some give up just due to the frustration of heading to SS whereas they should be hitting the roads on weekend, myself included.

It's still too early to comment on long term reliability as I reckon the max a Duke could have crossed is less than 30k on the odo, to get clear pointers from the respective owners.

Now when it comes to comparo, the showroom has imported bikes from Austria as show bikes, like SXF 250 and 1190 and you have our Indian made bikes right next to them. Quality difference is 100% obvious from what you see, feel and experience. Case in point, the rubber damper surrouding the Dukes here in India, and see the same surrounding 1190 and the SXF 250 the finish is totally justified for the price. Case in point, WP forks, I was so impressed with the RC1190 R's genuine WP forks and rear shocks, though they are identical to what they are sold in India WP (Made by Endurance) WP on the 1190 and SFX is lightyears away from what we have to offer. Remember the fork diameter of Duke and 1190, they are both same. This comparo isn't directly faced between a superbike and a mass produced motorcycle, but just you people get the finer details.

Now coming to comparo with RC390, yes the fairings is good, the dual projector lamps are good, the tail lamp looks brilliant but apart from that the engine is totally the same, you have forged rearsets and forged top fork plate, improved handlbar grip (liked this one) at least as what's mentioned by KTM, how forged or cast? One will only have to drop the bike to see it. Improved rigidity of the alloys? Again one will have to rape it intently to know if it still holds, but I guess alloys should be fine, it's more an issue of our pathetic roads coupled with suicidal rider attitude.

My rear shocks already started rusting on the inner wounds where they are spaced close together at the top, 3 rings in total, and this is a replaced shock from my leaky rear shocker.

Look at the grades of nuts and bolts used in the Austrian made stuff, you have very good grades of bolt, and I don't even think bolts and nuts used in our Dukes would even come to close to the what's offered from the former. What you're effectively paying is for the value that KTM has created around the world, now Bajaj has a whopping 47% stake in KTM, which effectively means Stefan is now more or less working for Bajaj or at least that's how it is, at least for now.

And considering even more el cheapo stuffs churning out from Bajaj branded Pulsar such as 200, 400cc with almost ditto engine technology from KTM, with minor casing changes, oh boy, KTM loses its brand uniqueness here, another factor.

ToraTora, again it's not hard to make a "reliable" product with less money, at least where it matters. Case in point take the Yamaha R15 150cc, superb build quality, and yes it's Made in India and exported too, even Japan, such is the quality. This bike is a good half the price of Duke 390, it has fuel injection, it has six gears, it has a digital/analogue dash, it has those excellent fairings, it has Nissin calipers, dual disc and Deltabox frame. Still one of the best premium 150cc motorcycles I can say at this price point.

And hardly the forums are flooding with such niggling issues, as KTM faces. I think I will stop it at that.

VJ

 

[fos373]

"Look at the grades of nuts and bolts used in the Austrian made stuff, you have very good grades of bolt, and I don't even think bolts and nuts used in our Dukes would even come to close to the what's offered from the former "

This ^