Fasteddy
Member
Were they notified in writing / some exculpatory way? or just via phone? Phone is just 'mere conversation' FWIW....
rick
New Member
So, I've been playing phone tag with Mike Cooper from KTM all week. I thought it was weird that his messages were always just his name and phone number. So, I left him another message this morning emphasizing that he didn't have to call me back unless there was an update - I was just reminding him that the bike was still broken down and that I was still waiting for the buy back and that I appreciate that he was working on getting that for me. As my wife says, "sugar lips."
He left me another one of those name and contact info messages over lunch. It suddenly occurred to me that he doesn't want to leave a recording behind where he says anything that could be used against them. So, I called back and this time he answered.
His story completely changed from last time where he said the bike was 100% mechanically sound, it was just an instrumentation issue and that they'd tested it and it had the correct oil pressure. Now, it had an aftermarket oil filter that had disintegrated (it uses paper cartridges), the oil screen was missing an o-ring and the oil was full of brass meaning that the crankshaft was destroyed. Reading between the lines he was saying that I put that in there and that I can therefore go to hell. He also said something along the lines of, "You wanted a replacement, right?" that I felt was a tricky way to force me to change my buy-back request.
I said that the dealer said that they changed the oil when they repaired the head gasket failure 1,000 miles ago and that I still wanted a buy-back. I'm starting to think that he might be evil.
After that I called K&N to confirm that coolant running through a paper oil filter would in fact cause a paper oil filter to eventually fail. They obviously have some serious skin in the game if KTM is trying to peg it on them but, they were very supportive. They said that if that's the same oil filter that was in there before the head gasket failed then that's all on KTM because it's incredibly reckless to not replace the oil and filter after a head gasket failure. They also emphasized that their filters are meant to filter oil and that all paper filters will react the same way to coolant as paper does to water: it will fall apart eventually. They said they'd happily provide statements to that effect to my attorney if requested. I tried calling the dealer after that but, they seem to have shut me out since I asked for the buy-back. That's really not like them so, I assume KTM-NA/Mike said something to them.
Finally, I sent an email to the lemon law attorney I've been corresponding with to update her.
Grumble.
He left me another one of those name and contact info messages over lunch. It suddenly occurred to me that he doesn't want to leave a recording behind where he says anything that could be used against them. So, I called back and this time he answered.
His story completely changed from last time where he said the bike was 100% mechanically sound, it was just an instrumentation issue and that they'd tested it and it had the correct oil pressure. Now, it had an aftermarket oil filter that had disintegrated (it uses paper cartridges), the oil screen was missing an o-ring and the oil was full of brass meaning that the crankshaft was destroyed. Reading between the lines he was saying that I put that in there and that I can therefore go to hell. He also said something along the lines of, "You wanted a replacement, right?" that I felt was a tricky way to force me to change my buy-back request.
I said that the dealer said that they changed the oil when they repaired the head gasket failure 1,000 miles ago and that I still wanted a buy-back. I'm starting to think that he might be evil.
After that I called K&N to confirm that coolant running through a paper oil filter would in fact cause a paper oil filter to eventually fail. They obviously have some serious skin in the game if KTM is trying to peg it on them but, they were very supportive. They said that if that's the same oil filter that was in there before the head gasket failed then that's all on KTM because it's incredibly reckless to not replace the oil and filter after a head gasket failure. They also emphasized that their filters are meant to filter oil and that all paper filters will react the same way to coolant as paper does to water: it will fall apart eventually. They said they'd happily provide statements to that effect to my attorney if requested. I tried calling the dealer after that but, they seem to have shut me out since I asked for the buy-back. That's really not like them so, I assume KTM-NA/Mike said something to them.
Finally, I sent an email to the lemon law attorney I've been corresponding with to update her.
Grumble.
Treachery
Moderator
I know that warranty horror stories are out there for pretty much any manufacturer, but this sounds beyond the pale.
rick
New Member
I just got a short response form the attorney I've been corresponding with:
I'm not sure which part of my story suggests a legal crossover into fraud vs run of the mill corporate evil but, ...just damn.
...damn
I'm not sure which part of my story suggests a legal crossover into fraud vs run of the mill corporate evil but, ...just damn.
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rick
New Member
I have a possibly positive update!
As a reminder, on Monday Mike Cooper from KTM-NA said that the RC390 had an aftermarket oil filter in it that failed and the oil was full of brass indicating the crank was failing. This seemed to me to be his, "I got you now so you can go to hell!" moment. When I said that the oil had last been changed about 1,000 miles ago when the head was replaced under warranty he got quiet.
So, last night the dealer called and said that the oil filter was not changed after the head gasket failure and head replacement. The apologized at length and said that they'd had a team meeting about it which may have included some raised angry voices on his part. He asked how they could make this right. I stuck with my buy-back request which they said was pretty reasonable given my history with this bike. Then we talked about what motorcycles might make a good replacement for a bit.
After I got off the phone with the dealer I had a message from Mike Cooper. He confirmed that the oil had not been changed after the head gasket failure and that he was going to talk to his boss about resolving my case and that he'd call me Monday.
So, that was far and away the most candid Mike's ever been with me. The dealer was great and I have the tiniest shred of hope that this may actually get resolved in my favor without lawyerly intervention. ...maybe
As a reminder, on Monday Mike Cooper from KTM-NA said that the RC390 had an aftermarket oil filter in it that failed and the oil was full of brass indicating the crank was failing. This seemed to me to be his, "I got you now so you can go to hell!" moment. When I said that the oil had last been changed about 1,000 miles ago when the head was replaced under warranty he got quiet.
So, last night the dealer called and said that the oil filter was not changed after the head gasket failure and head replacement. The apologized at length and said that they'd had a team meeting about it which may have included some raised angry voices on his part. He asked how they could make this right. I stuck with my buy-back request which they said was pretty reasonable given my history with this bike. Then we talked about what motorcycles might make a good replacement for a bit.
After I got off the phone with the dealer I had a message from Mike Cooper. He confirmed that the oil had not been changed after the head gasket failure and that he was going to talk to his boss about resolving my case and that he'd call me Monday.
So, that was far and away the most candid Mike's ever been with me. The dealer was great and I have the tiniest shred of hope that this may actually get resolved in my favor without lawyerly intervention. ...maybe
rick
New Member
Also, the dealer said that he was googling about the RC390 and low oil pressure and all the links that came up were these threads so, thanks everyone!
rick
New Member
A small update:
KTM-NA/Mike Cooper left me one of his mysterious name and phone number messages this morning which usually means something bad for me. I called him back and he said that he heard that I had been talking to the dealer about buying a new bike and that he felt that they were on hold until I decided what I wanted.
I said that I would still need a another motorcycle once the buyback was done and that I had chatted with the dealer about some of my options but, that we both seemed to feel that everything was on hold until KTM made a decision. Mike asked if I was set on the buyback and asked if he could give me a warranty extension or some gear instead. I said that I felt that I've been clear and consistent about wanting a buyback for almost a month now. He said he would pass it to his legal department and ended the call.
He's never technically rude but always exhausting.
I'm a little grumbly because that's what he said he'd do nearly a month ago and I guess nothing came of his message about talking to his boss and get my "case resolved" last week. Sigh, I guess it's going into legal hell now - attorney's are saying it's time to sue.
KTM-NA/Mike Cooper left me one of his mysterious name and phone number messages this morning which usually means something bad for me. I called him back and he said that he heard that I had been talking to the dealer about buying a new bike and that he felt that they were on hold until I decided what I wanted.
I said that I would still need a another motorcycle once the buyback was done and that I had chatted with the dealer about some of my options but, that we both seemed to feel that everything was on hold until KTM made a decision. Mike asked if I was set on the buyback and asked if he could give me a warranty extension or some gear instead. I said that I felt that I've been clear and consistent about wanting a buyback for almost a month now. He said he would pass it to his legal department and ended the call.
He's never technically rude but always exhausting.
I'm a little grumbly because that's what he said he'd do nearly a month ago and I guess nothing came of his message about talking to his boss and get my "case resolved" last week. Sigh, I guess it's going into legal hell now - attorney's are saying it's time to sue.
ToraTora
Member
Hey Rick--it's been a while any update?
rick
New Member
I did file a lawsuit against KTM on 9/1/16 (Case #BC632594). The process is still ongoing but, it may be wrapping up before the year is out. Due to an NDA I can't disclose any details.
I can express my feelings on the experience so far which has left me with the opinion that KTM and Mike Cooper are, at best, Incredibly petty and have no interest in doing the right thing. I really hope that nobody else ever has to go through this or, if you have to, that maybe KTM maybe learned something from this experience and won't behave as horribly toward you.
If i had to do it all over again, I probably would have lawyer-ed up sooner but, I kept hoping that every breakdown was the last one. The RC390 was fun when it worked but, at this point I really wish I had never bought it. They say you really see a persons or a businesses character when things go wrong and I've certainly seen enough to avoid buying KTM ever again.
I can express my feelings on the experience so far which has left me with the opinion that KTM and Mike Cooper are, at best, Incredibly petty and have no interest in doing the right thing. I really hope that nobody else ever has to go through this or, if you have to, that maybe KTM maybe learned something from this experience and won't behave as horribly toward you.
If i had to do it all over again, I probably would have lawyer-ed up sooner but, I kept hoping that every breakdown was the last one. The RC390 was fun when it worked but, at this point I really wish I had never bought it. They say you really see a persons or a businesses character when things go wrong and I've certainly seen enough to avoid buying KTM ever again.
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ToraTora
Member
That's really disheartening.
stevieboy
Member
Well that's not going in the "who loves their 390" thread.
philipviana
Member
Really sucks Rick. Hope it goes your way and you get fully paid off for the bike and the legal fees! (Too bad they can't give you back your lost time... )
rick
New Member
Heh, the lawyers were pretty clear about the law not caring about my lost time, time off of work nor the cost of any maintenance performed or for upgrades I've made to the bike. Towing and having to use alternate transportation would only be covered if I had to rent something like a car/truck to do it. If I used my own car/truck then I get nothing. ...at least nothing as guaranteed by the law.
Kind of a bummer for the 145 days I've had to use alternate transportation to and from work (out of 230 days broken down) and the numerous trips hauling the bike to and from the dealer. Oh well, I mostly just want the misery to end.
ToraTora
Member
Hey Rick! How much of this bullshit do you think comes from KTM, KTM NA, or Mike? If you can't say because of the lawsuit it's cool. I'm just curious what your take on it is having been dumped on so harshly.
Hey if you are jonesing for some small bike action you can come visit me in SF, and we'll takes some Derbis into Marin. Super fun.
Hey if you are jonesing for some small bike action you can come visit me in SF, and we'll takes some Derbis into Marin. Super fun.
rick
New Member
It *seems* like most of it must come from Mike Cooper of KTM North America.
Just to work it through, the possible candidates by my thinking are Mike Copper, Santa Barbara Motorsports (SBM), Thousand Oaks Powersports and KTM's lawyers. My assumption is that it is NOT the lawyers and they're only repeating what they were told. If true, that leaves Mike Cooper and the two dealerships.
I suspect that until the most recent breakdown, communication from the dealership to KTM was not directly with Mike Cooper. Those KTM records may or may not be accurate for whatever reason. I assume they're more notes rather than detailed accounts and could be interpreted a number of ways. I've noticed differences between the dealer's and KTM's version of events since the very beginning. Once I dropped SBM and started going to Thousand Oaks these issues continued so, it's possible that BOTH dealers are saying one thing to me and something else to KTM but, these two dealers couldn't be more different about how well they treated me so, that seems less likely and tends to point the finger more at KTM.
Once I asked for the buyback and had the misfortune of having to regularly call Mike Cooper, it became very clear that he was personally talking to the dealer. You'd think this "miscommunication" would get better but, it got worse. And this was at a time were details were becoming more important.
Thousand Oaks Powersports, at least to my face, was so supportive and apologetic that it really seems that it has to be Mike Cooper that felt such hostility (or whatever you want to call it) toward me. I worked so hard to be nice, clear and consistent through all this so, I don't feel it was necessarily anything overly personal against me. Maybe he had a bad review or a buyback quota. Maybe it's personal problems being projected onto me. Maybe it's just business and he has no feelings toward me and he simply says or does whatever needs to be done to fight off customers for the company. Maybe it's something else.
Whatever the case, Mike Cooper is the nexus of communication between me, the dealers and KTM's lawyers and seems like the most likely source.
...It's also possible that my initial assumption was wrong and the lawyers have their own contributing part in all this. KTM itself could also have a corporate culture of treating customers poorly. Who knows?
As for small bike action, one of the good things the RC did do was remind me how much I love 'em! I wish that it hadn't been such an unreliable monster. On the days it wasn't broken down, the twistie part of my commute was glorious.
Just to work it through, the possible candidates by my thinking are Mike Copper, Santa Barbara Motorsports (SBM), Thousand Oaks Powersports and KTM's lawyers. My assumption is that it is NOT the lawyers and they're only repeating what they were told. If true, that leaves Mike Cooper and the two dealerships.
I suspect that until the most recent breakdown, communication from the dealership to KTM was not directly with Mike Cooper. Those KTM records may or may not be accurate for whatever reason. I assume they're more notes rather than detailed accounts and could be interpreted a number of ways. I've noticed differences between the dealer's and KTM's version of events since the very beginning. Once I dropped SBM and started going to Thousand Oaks these issues continued so, it's possible that BOTH dealers are saying one thing to me and something else to KTM but, these two dealers couldn't be more different about how well they treated me so, that seems less likely and tends to point the finger more at KTM.
Once I asked for the buyback and had the misfortune of having to regularly call Mike Cooper, it became very clear that he was personally talking to the dealer. You'd think this "miscommunication" would get better but, it got worse. And this was at a time were details were becoming more important.
Thousand Oaks Powersports, at least to my face, was so supportive and apologetic that it really seems that it has to be Mike Cooper that felt such hostility (or whatever you want to call it) toward me. I worked so hard to be nice, clear and consistent through all this so, I don't feel it was necessarily anything overly personal against me. Maybe he had a bad review or a buyback quota. Maybe it's personal problems being projected onto me. Maybe it's just business and he has no feelings toward me and he simply says or does whatever needs to be done to fight off customers for the company. Maybe it's something else.
Whatever the case, Mike Cooper is the nexus of communication between me, the dealers and KTM's lawyers and seems like the most likely source.
...It's also possible that my initial assumption was wrong and the lawyers have their own contributing part in all this. KTM itself could also have a corporate culture of treating customers poorly. Who knows?
As for small bike action, one of the good things the RC did do was remind me how much I love 'em! I wish that it hadn't been such an unreliable monster. On the days it wasn't broken down, the twistie part of my commute was glorious.
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ToraTora
Member
Hey Rick, Thanks for the reply. Seriously though if you want to come up for a ride just let me know.
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