Front Caliper Dimensions?

[ToraTora]

Does anyone know the dimensions of the front caliper, and if not can someone that has the RC measure it? Nearly all of the thorough reviews have stated that the brakes are one of the bike's weak areas. Knowing the caliper dimensions is the first step in resolving the issue.

The rear one doesn't matter so much since under hard braking the rear wheel becomes light enough to render the rear brake pretty much useless. Thus the front one is where you would want to put your money.

 

[guzz46]

My brother who lives in Aussie rode a demo RC the other day, and he said the brakes are really powerful, he also said the suspension was really stiff, and with his riding gear on he probably weighs about 100kg to 105kg, so maybe they have made a few changes to the export models? stiffer springs and better brake pads?
He also said it was gutless, like riding a RGV 250 without the power band, but it did only have 91kms on it, so hopefully it will gain some power once it's fully run in.

My last new bike was a TL1000s back in 1999, and I remember all the reports of it picking the front wheel up when it hit about 7000rpm, so when I first took it to redline after passing the run in period I was expecting a rather large wheelie, but there was nothing, there wasn't even much of a power band.
It was only after clocking up another thousand kms or two did it reach its full potential, there was a decent power band at 7000rpm that did pick the front wheel up in first gear, and second gear on the rebound.

 

[Treachery]

I think the "gutless" impression might have as much to do with your bro's svelte physique as the "green" motor...

Just saying'...



Sorry, I know that doesn't address the caliper dimensions. What will those tell you?

 

[guzz46]

That wouldn't help things for sure, but he used to ride an Aprilia RS 250 years ago, and I don't think he was that much lighter back then than he is now, and his RS was a European restricted version too, with a catalytic converter, I think it had about 45hp? and about the same wet weight as the RC, the RC should have more torque as well, so I'm pinning it on the tight engine going by my previous experience on how much things improved on the TL once it got a couple of thousand KMs on it.

As a side note, hopefully I'll be getting mine late next week, I won't be able to comment on the power for a while though, as I'll obviously have to run it in first, but I'll get to see how it handles though, and see how good the brakes are, my brother did say it felt REALLY light, and that it fell into corners with ease, almost like a moto3 bike with a different engine.

 

[Treachery]

As a side note, hopefully I'll be getting mine late next week, I won't be able to comment on the power for a while though, as I'll obviously have to run it in first, but I'll get to see how it handles though, and see how good the brakes are, my brother did say it felt REALLY light, and that it fell into corners with ease, almost like a moto3 bike with a different engine.

Gonna need pix!

 

[ToraTora]

Hey Guzz, I don't know your brother, but it sounds like maybe he stays at some really good motels. He probably also didn't ride the bike all that hard, nor on a track. In the more telling reviews like the video one below, and the one in Motorcyclist, they mention that the brakes have issues when you push them. Zack Courts at Motorcyclist states that at around 80%...well just read the quote below. If you look at the master on the bike it doesn't give the impression of being all that stellar either. I'm pretty sure that good pads could help as Zack recommends, but a better master, and maybe even a caliper upgrade is certainly worth consideration.

The desire for better brakes is of course a personal thing, and really shouldn't require being defended. If you feel that you are happy with stock that's great. However, if others are so inclined to desire something different that should be acceptable too. Outside of tires there probably isn't a better place to spend money on a bike than on the brakes. Brakes are what allow you to go fast, and don't let ABS fool you into believing it will make you a better safer rider. ABS on a bike like this will probably do the reverse--there's a bunch of good reasons why they pull that crap off of the Cup bikes, but that's a discussion for another thread.

While chatting about power action should actually be in another thread I'll say this: that your brother may enjoy a certain modesty in the locations in which he chooses to slumber, and that he's actually owned a rather decent stroker it would make one inclined to believe that he understands the concept of a peaky engine. The reviews have stated that this bike runs in a power band (check out that video below). The newer 4-strokes are being engineered to act like two strokes for a reason. That reason being they want to get more power out of (compared to two strokes) a compromised design. So what's the logical direction? Steal ideas from the strokers. Now if your brother was riding the bike say in the 7K zone I would expect the bike to feel gutless. I've ridden the Duke 690, and until you get it "on the pipe" it too feels like it's wanting. Also, with regards to your other comment: a nikasil cylinder doesn't need a whole lot of run in time (and yeah nikasil is yet another two stroke thing). Anyway--if you really have the desire to discuss this more please move it to another thread rather than pollute a thread about brakes, okay?

Treachery, knowing the dimensions of the stock caliper will provide the information needed the explore possible replacement calipers. Fitting an actual Brembo is of course the most obvious choice.

A radially mounted, four-piston Bybre caliper squeezes a single 300mm disc up front, with a 230mm disc astern pinched by a single-piston Bybre. The brakes operate happily up to about 80 percent of maximum power (perfectly acceptable on the street), after which it takes a firm squeeze to add stopping power. By the time the rear wheel lifts off the ground and engages the standard Bosch 9MP ABS there is very little feel at the lever. The binders never faded during three 20-minute sessions, though, suggesting that more aggressive pads would probably improve brake feel.

[video=youtube;RJrpKLDaA9A]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RJrpKLDaA9A[/video]

 

[ToraTora]

Hey Guzz, I don't know your brother, but it sounds like maybe he stays at some really good motels. He probably also didn't ride the bike all that hard, nor on a track. In the more telling reviews like the video one below, and the one in Motorcyclist, they mention that the brakes have issues when you push them. Zack Courts at Motorcyclist states that at around 80%...well just read the quote below. If you look at the master on the bike it doesn't give the impression of being all that stellar either. I'm pretty sure that good pads could help as Zack recommends, but a better master, and maybe even a caliper upgrade is certainly worth consideration.


The desire for better brakes is of course a personal thing, and really shouldn't require being defended. If you feel that you are happy with stock that's great. However, if others are so inclined to desire something different that should be acceptable too. Outside of tires there probably isn't a better place to spend money on a bike than on the brakes. Brakes are what allow you to go fast, and don't let ABS fool you into believing it will make you a better safer rider. ABS on a bike like this will probably do the reverse--there's a bunch of good reasons why they pull that crap off of the Cup bikes, but that's a discussion for another thread.


While chatting about power action should actually be in another thread I'll say this: that your brother may enjoy a certain modesty in the locations in which he chooses to slumber, and that he's actually owned a rather decent stroker it would make one inclined to believe that he understands the concept of a peaky engine. The reviews have stated that this bike runs in a power band (check out that video below). The newer 4-strokes are being engineered to act like two strokes for a reason. That reason being they want to get more power out of (compared to two strokes) a compromised design. So what's the logical direction? Steal ideas from the strokers. Now if your brother was riding the bike say in the 7K zone I would expect the bike to feel gutless. I've ridden the Duke 690, and until you get it "on the pipe" it too feels like it's wanting. Also, with regards to your other comment: a nikasil cylinder doesn't need a whole lot of run in time (and yeah nikasil is yet another two stroke thing). Anyway--if you really have the desire to discuss this more please move it to another thread rather than pollute a thread about brakes, okay?


Treachery, knowing the dimensions of the stock caliper will provide the information needed the explore possible replacement calipers. Fitting an actual Brembo is of course the most obvious choice.

A radially mounted, four-piston Bybre caliper squeezes a single 300mm disc up front, with a 230mm disc astern pinched by a single-piston Bybre. The brakes operate happily up to about 80 percent of maximum power (perfectly acceptable on the street), after which it takes a firm squeeze to add stopping power. By the time the rear wheel lifts off the ground and engages the standard Bosch 9MP ABS there is very little feel at the lever. The binders never faded during three 20-minute sessions, though, suggesting that more aggressive pads would probably improve brake feel.

[video=youtube;RJrpKLDaA9A]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RJrpKLDaA9A[/video]

 

[VAG944]

I would think the weakness in the brakes would be: pads, lever master cylinder not being radial design and rotor diameter (I'm swapping to the race roter and pads early on). I don't think a caliper swap would be as big a benefit as the fore mentioned items. $0.02!

 

[Treachery]

I hadn't considered the master cylinder. Depending on the integration of the brake light switch, making that swap/upgrade shouldn't be too difficult. Just do it before you upgrade the levers.

 

[guzz46]

My brother isn't fat, he's about 6"1 and built quite big, he didn't ride it on a track because it was a demo with only 90km on it, but he didn't just ride it in a straight line, and he has had plenty of good sportsbikes over the years, including most recently a ZX10, so he does know what good brakes feel like, and he said the RC's brakes are awesome, also keep in mind that the European duke 390's have stiffer suspension to the Indian duke 390's, so it could very well be possible that the brakes on the launch RC's are slightly different to the European/International RC's, in which case they may not need upgrading at all.
You can search for better brakes if you want, but personally I would clock up a few hundred km's or so on the bike first to actually see what the brakes are like.

I was only posting someones opinion who has actually ridden a non launch bike.

 

[ToraTora]

Hey Vag--like I stated above the stock master looks suspect. I would expect to replace it right away. Again with a Brembo master. Probably a forged RCS 16. As for the disc--most things I've read about the Cup bikes state they will be going to a larger disc--or at least a better one. Which is great.

Now the thing is for masters, pads, rotor, and braided lines one doesn't need any special information. However, for the caliper knowing the dimensions is necessary. Researching for a caliper doesn't preclude the other components, and it would be rather pointless to not upgrade those things at the same time. If you are on a tight budget, then yeah do just the pads. If you can go a wee bit more go to a braided line (that is if they don't come stock), and then next go for the master. But if you really want to do things right replace them all--it will be totally worth the money spent. I will add this--the above is predicated on if you are going to be riding the bike. If you just want something to show off to your mates well then it doesn't really matter now does it?

T--you can deal with the brake switch by employing a pressure switch built into the banjo bolt. Lots of people do this when they upgrade to an RCS, or similar master. I've done this same thing on my bikes, and it works great.

Guzz--dude a chill pill would probably go a long way. That said owning a bike doesn't mean anything even if it is a ZX-10. That's no proof that you know how to ride it, nor is it proof that you know how to judge bikes. From what you've already stated about your brother, and if that's the only thing I had to go on, I might have a hard time believing him if he told me the sun was up at noon. What can be concluded from what he has said, according to you, is that he's okay with crappy brakes.

Now magazines aren't usually up front about saying things like the brakes suck, and yet multiple sources are stating such. A visual of the stock equipment also lends to this assessment. Because you seem hell bent on this position that the stock brakes are Tony the Tiger great I'll leave you with yet another video reenforcing the position that the stock brakes suck. By the way--spoiler alert--the RC loses 1st place in this shoot out because of the hard seat, and the crapy brakes--that should speak volumes considering how much advantage it has in other areas (and it wins the race). Now the editors/riders could be full of crap, or maybe they didn't stay at the same motel that your brother finds so appealing. Or maybe, just maybe the stock brakes suck.

[video=youtube;U9e2bYbodu8]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U9e2bYbodu8[/video]

 

[TZMike]

So getting back to the brake dimensions- can someone measure the center-to-center distance between the mounting holes on the front caliper? That would at least give us an idea if some other caliper can be easily bolted on.

I'm thinking there are already 320mm floating brake disks available which can bolt on directly- it looks like a standard 6 bolt pattern in the pics. Some 10mm spacers will be required to position the caliper correctly but that should be pretty simple.

TIA,

TZMike

 

[guzz46]

Who said I was angry? I was simply correcting your assumption that my brother is fat because he weighs 100kg or so in his riding gear, body builders are heavy and they aren't fat.
I can't give you proof, but he does know how to ride, very well in fact, he has also raced before if you must know, but being a motorcycle journalist doesn't mean they know how to ride a bike fast either, nor is it proof they know how to judge bikes, yet it seems you have already come to the conclusion that the brakes are crappy (without even riding the bike for yourself) based on some motorcycle journalists opinion of a launch bike that may well have different spec brakes to the bike you'll be getting.


You also seem to be able to tell if brakes are crappy simply by looking at pictures of them, without even seeing the brake pads, quite an impressive feat really, also I'm sure you know that multiple sources have said the suspension is soft, yet my brother (who you think is fat) thinks the suspension is hard, now do you think that they could have changed the springs for the euro/international version like they did for the duke? if so then do you think they could have made slight changes to the brakes too?


And for your information, I don't think the brakes are Tony the Tiger great, and I don't think they're crappy either, unlike you I don't pass judgement on a motorcycles brakes until I have ridden that motorcycle for myself.

 

[Treachery]

guzz- mea culpa- I'm the first one who referred to your brother's size with respect to his impression of acceleration on the 390. I wasn't suggesting that he was fat, or unskilled, just that his size (relative to my 135 pounds) might lead to somewhat less spritely performance. If I started that diversion of the thread, my bad.

It seems that on the brakes, one of the British mags (the one that posted the two good comparo vids) seemed to have started the sh**storm over the brakes. Motorcyclist (I think) said they seemed wooden on the street, but fine so long as you realized that they required a firm hand. I'm happy to wait and see.

Tora- Thanks for the notion on where to go on the upgrade parts. I need to see the front MC assembly; if it's cast into the "clip-on," we're scrood. Otherwise, the upgrade to a radial MC and TZMilke's plan on the larger rotor and accompanying caliper seems doable enough.

That is if I don't look at suspension mods with the first $ignificant upgrade dollah$.

 

[TZMike]

cool. now that you guys have finished sniffing each others butts and made up, can someone measure the caliper bolt center distance on the calipers?

don't forget- age and treachery wins over youth and exuberance every time...

TZMike

 

[TZMike]

or is it "experience and treachery"? yes, that's it. .. :-D

 

[Treachery]

Hah! Actually I've always heard it as "old age and treachery..." And so the screen name.

 

[kalleh]

cool. now that you guys have finished sniffing each others butts and made up, can someone measure the caliper bolt center distance on the calipers?

don't forget- age and treachery wins over youth and exuberance every time...

TZMike

Wouldn't replacing rotor or calipers or master cylinder make this bike illegal in 300 Prod?

 

[TZMike]

yes, it probably would. then you'd have to run in the modified class

 

[ToraTora]

Dimensional Analysis

Mike–I'm expecting that they are employing a 100mm mount, and hopefully the offset will be compatible with maybe an oem Brembo. That with an rcs, and decent lines should provide great braking for this bike. And of course some consideration for the disc.

K–the classing would only matter if you are racing. If you aren't going to be racing then it makes a lot of sense to upgrade the brakes. If you are racing then it would depend on the organization. Some of them might actually be in favor of a brake upgrade for safety reasons. The cup bikes will have improved brakes. Some of the photos show them with braided lines, different discs, and no abs.

T–glad to be of service. The master is a bolt on. It is clear from the photos.

G–please chill out dooder. As far as this thread is concerned I don't care how fat your brother is, what he thinks about this bike, what bikes he has had, or even if he has a fashionation for gerbils. All of that is completely irrelevant. I asked very specifically for the dimensions of the front brake caliper. If you don't have that, and you still feel compelled to grace us with your bro's activities, and opinions please do so in another more appropriate thread.